A Flarrow Conversation
Pop-Break’s Arrow columnist Marisa Carpico and Flash columnist Matt Kelly got together to break down the two-night crossover of the two DC Comics series that aired this week on The CW.
Maria Carpico: So, let’s get to the important questions first: who do you think won the fight in the warehouse at the end of the Arrow episode?
Matt Kelly: Great question. Unless Oliver planted more invisible crossbows in the warehouse, Barry would have destroyed him. But that makes me assume that Barry would let Oliver win, because he was so mean to him about not having powers in “Flash vs. Arrow.”
Maria Carpico: Yeah, I agree. I love Oliver, but if he was really going to have a chance he should have chosen a more complex venue. And Barry is a cocky guy, I think he’d give it his all—not that he’d need to.
Matt Kelly: Also we already saw that Oliver has 0 real plans for stopping Barry considering the look on his face then the tranquilizer arrow failed.
Maria Carpico: Haha, yeah, he’s showing up to a gun fight with a knife. He’s lucky the episode ended before the audience had to watch him get destroyed. So did you like the Flash episode more or the Arrow episode?
Matt Kelly: Hmmmmm, I thought it was the best episode of The Flash they’ve made (except for maybe Capt. Cold’s episode)
Maria Carpico: Definitely.
Matt Kelly: And I think the Arrow mixes with Flash a lot better than the Flash mixes with Arrow if you know what I mean.
Maria Carpico: Yeah, I’d definitely agree with that. Though part of that is that the supporting characters aren’t as strong on The Flash.
Matt Kelly: Totally.
Maria Carpico: Like, by now, we know exactly who Felicity and Diggle are, so getting them to interact in a meaningful way is easier. I still feel like I have no idea who Caitlin and Cisco are. I was actually a bigger fan of the Arrow episode because, and I don’t know if you felt this way, watching them back to back and so intertwined, The Flash feels oddly childish in comparison. So when I got to the Arrow episode, it just felt like the adults were playing now, you know?
Matt Kelly: Yeah I know what you mean. And the episode was pretty clear about that when they talked in the club about how Oliver’s world is more real.
Maria Carpico: Yeah, that really laid it all out on the line for sure. Though I’ve been feeling a little mixed on the show since the Captain Cold episode. I know you weren’t a huge fan of Felicity’s involvement in that episode and I both agree and disagree. I really enjoyed her interactions with the team, but I also think that she exposed some of the show’s problems and they’ve been sort of bothering me ever since. The Iris problem, for instance, which you mention fairly often in your recaps.
Matt Kelly: Yeah, I think the Felicity fan-service has been a little obnoxious on Arrow this season and now it has spilled over onto The Flash. I think Iris is going through a lot of the issues that Laurel went through originally.
Maria Carpico: Absolutely. Of all the supporting characters on The Flash, she’s the one who seems least developed even though we’ve spent the most time with her and we’re, supposedly, supposed to be rooting for her and Barry to get together. She’s like a poor man’s Lois Lane and an almost exact copy of Laurel with a slightly more appealing actress. I actually find Barry’s obsession with her a little like a teenage boy obsessed with a girl. And his sabotaging of her relationship with Eddie is sort of the least likable thing about him. Like, I root for her and Eddie the same way I did Laurel and Tommy. I don’t know if you feel the same way.
Matt Kelly: Yeah, I am expecting them to turn Eddie into a bad guy soon so that all of the Barry weirdness can be justified. Because Eddie has been nothing but THE nicest guy up until now. Especially this episode.
Maria Carpico: They certainly started turning him with him wanting the anti-Flash task force, which was completely out of character. Did you find that totally rang false? Because I’m not sure I understand why he would think the Flash is a bad guy when he’s really been “THE nicest”up to now. That just seemed like a writerly move to make us start to dislike Eddie.
Matt Kelly: Yeah, I understand why he wanted the task force, but it seems like a pretty flimsy reasoning. Especially since the only two people in that city that care about the Flash are Joe and Iris. It almost seems like it was just a way to make Eddie matter at all.
Maria Carpico: Though do you think the yellow-garbed Reverse Flash they showed in the promo for next week is going to turn out to be Eddie like in the comic books? Maybe future Eddie traveling back in time? Or do you have a theory for who that is?
Matt Kelly: I kinda of think it’s Barry’s dad now. I just don’t know why.
Whoa.
What if Eddie goes back in time and becomes Barry’s dad? Is that too crazy?
Maria Carpico: That is horrifying.
Matt Kelly: It might be. I think Barry’s dad is connected to all of this and we don’t know the whole story.
Maria Carpico: Can you imagine the conversation after that reveal? “Thanks for dating my future wife, Dad.”
Matt Kelly: Oliver should have had it with his dad after Raveger [Isobel Rochev]. Except for the future wife part.
Maria Carpico: I shudder to think how many women Oliver and his father likely both slept with. Speaking of Queen family indiscretions, on a scale of 1 to 10 how much do you not ever want to see Oliver’s illegitimate child on the show?
Matt Kelly: If Oliver’s kid is ever on the show, I think it will officially jump the shark. It would be the biggest mistake they could make. I can barely stand Diggle’s kid.
Maria Carpico: Haha, yeah, I’m not sure I’d go that far, but I don’t know how they would work it into the plot that wouldn’t be sort of obnoxious. I’d hope that when they do it, they go against comics and don’t make the kid the future Arrow. And what did baby Sara ever do to you?
Matt: She was a baby. She has no place on the show. When Lyla got boomeranged, you just knew she was going to make it because she has the baby. The same will go for Diggle until Sara gets to the age when avenging DIggle makes sense.
Maria Carpico: Christ, I hope the show doesn’t last that long. If I’m still writing Arrow Recaps at 40, somebody should shoot me with an arrow and put me out of my misery. Are you not a big fan of the inevitable Lyla/Diggle wedding we’ll have to watch at some point?
Matt Kelly: Not at all. I don’t like Lyla at all. I was kind of hoping last night was going to be her swan song. Family life keeps pulling Diggle away from the action and Diggle is the best part of the action. Roy can only do so many weird backflips before you need a good helping of Diggle. Also I subscribe to the Jon “Diggle” Stewart theory so the wedding and kid really mucks that up.
Maria Carpico: I’ll admit I don’t like her as much as I liked Carly, but I get why she’s around at this point. Diggle is just living the life Oliver wants but won’t allow himself to pursue. And tell me more about this theory….
Matt Kelly: The theory is the “Diggle” is a made up name or a middle name and his real name is Jon Stewart and at some point in the future he will become the Green Lantern.
Maria Carpico: This is my new dream. So what did you think of the Arrow episode overall? I don’t know if it was the best of the season, but I certainly enjoyed the hell out of it.
Matt Kelly: I really liked it. I thought Boomerang was so awesome I completely overlooked how stupid his gimmick is. I also thought Barry was a better Flash in that episode than he’s been on The Flash.
Maria Carpico: Really? How so?
Matt Kelly: He was fun and cool. He did the best salmon ladder.
Maria Carpico: That salmon ladder shot was delightful
Matt Kelly: I think Flash makes a great supporting character. And a pretty good main character.
Maria Carpico: Yeah, I think he’s the best thing about his show and the rest of it is just kind of meh for me. Especially the villains. I can’t remember a single thing about the Flash villain, but I agree Captain Boomerang ended up being really cool.
Matt: The Flash villain was about as bad as they get.
Maria Carpico: They desperately need to find better villains.
Matt Kelly: Really, they have all been garbage up until this point with the exception of Cold and Reverse Flash. But you still have Top, another Weather Wizard, Mirror Master, and Grodd so they can save the real story lines for those guys.
Maria Carpico: Accurate assessment.
Matt Kelly: And HeatWave.
Maria Carpico: They need to get Grodd on my screen immediately.
Matt Kelly: I have a feeling he is going to be The Flash’s Deathstroke. A behind the scenes bad guy for an entire season with a cabal of other key villains.
Maria Carpico: I think Wells has that place as the behind the scenes bad guy.
Matt Kelly: I mean that Grodd will be the Wells of Season 2.
Marisa Carpico: Ah, I got you. You’re probably right on that one. I’m also cautiously optimistic about Ronnie Raymond’s Firestorm.
Matt Kelly: Oh, yeah, I forgot about him. That part was great.
Maria Carpico: So, why don’t you like the focus on Felicity, may I ask?
Matt Kelly: In Flash or Arrow?
Maria Carpico: Either or both. Just what do you feel about the way she’s been used is fan service particularly?
Matt Kelly: I just find the Olicity relationship a little forced. And I think the relationship between her and Ray is a bit weird. Although I LOVE Ray.
Marisa Carpico: Really? That surprises me because they feel like his most honest interaction with a woman on the show to date. I’m not quite sure on Ray yet. He’s so far come off as creepy to me. I get that he’s just a foil for Oliver, but he seems a little weightless to me as a character.
Matt Kelly: Totally weightless. That’s what I love about him. He feels very Branniganesque and I love that about him.
Maria Carpico: Hmm, interesting. I just hope they flesh him out sometime soon or put him in the exo-suit so I can have something to latch onto.
Matt Kelly: We will totally get the suit this season.
Maria Carpico: I will write a strongly-worded letter if we don’t. Anything else you want to talk about for the crossover? Oliver and Barry’s fight about torturing criminals maybe?
Matt Kelly: That reminds me of this clip from the JLA Unlimited cartoon:
http://youtu.be/iSQ-h_2WGkw
Maria Carpico: Full disclosure: I’ve never seen a full episode of this show and my Arrow buddy basically told me I didn’t deserve to live because of this oversight last night. Legit reaction?
Matt: Its great, but there’s too much good stuff to watch everything so I get it. This clip is basically about how Flash doesn’t like torture.
Maria Carpico: That clip is surprisingly on point. Especially because Flash keeps talking about darts.
Matt Kelly: Haha, yeah. The soft kind.
Maria Carpico: Haha, exactly.
Matt Kelly: The only other thing I wanted to bring up was a small issue I had with Arrow. Why are they calling it the Arrow cave? And now we have Cisco talking about an Arrow mobile. Where are they getting that reference from?
Marisa Carpico: I think they’re just leaning into the Batman similarities and making a sort of sly comic book joke. Though I’m sure I’ve seen “Arrow Cave” floating around the internet in a sort of joking way.
Matt Kelly: Me too. The Harley Quinn/Arrow conversation about that is good if you haven’t seen it.
Maria Carpico: She is totally right. Damn I wish they could get Harley on the show.
Matt Kelly: We did for a second last season. And Diggle kind of referenced her in the Cupid episode. But I could not be more excited about Margot Robbie in Suicide Squad.
Maria Carpico: True, but those are just teases reminding me we’ll probably never get a full on Harley appearance because of Gotham and a potential Nightwing show or whatever. And Margot Robbie as Harley is the only reason I’m buying a ticket.
Matt Kelly: She’s perfect. Real quick, who killed Sara?
Maria Carpico: Thea. I know she and Malcolm were on that stupid island at the time, but how cool would it be if she killed Sara? I guess my real answer is Ra’s al Ghul though. Do you have a theory?
Matt Kelly: I think it’s Thea too. Or Oliver’s handler on Shanghai. But I have zero evidence for that except a picture of that guy with Ra’s next week.
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